Ar Pet Adoption

About cats and ownership

Katzenjammer (and folks), having been in and out of hospitals for the last three weeks, I haven't taken the opportunity to answer the debate about companionship/keepership/guardianship of cats vs plain old ownership. I object in principle to changing (nearly)every single iteration of the word "owner" in the cat article to something else. As a case in point, the Dog article has seven instances of the word owner but none of either: master / keeper / companion / guardian or whatever other terms. If you want to change some of those "owners" because of the sheer number (15 is a bit much) fine, but changing all but one of them is way too much the way I see it. Now, it DOES look like it's pushing an AR agenda (especially compared to Dog). I'd say let's revisit the article and keep say about half the "owners" and it should look neither anti-AR nor pro-AR. What say you?--Ramdrake 23:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Some people believe that cats can be owned, others do not. All can agree that cats can be taken care of. So in that respect, "caregiver" is a neutral term that all can agree upon. It neither pushes an AR agenda nor an anti-AR agenda. To use the term "owner" is to take an implicit stand on this issue, which it is not up to WP to do.

The fact that cat ownership is legal is generally irrelevant. It may be relevant in the context of discussing legal matters, which is not the case in the article.

The fact that the termo "owner" is used in the article on dogs is also irrelevant.

David Olivier 08:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I can cite you at least 20 books that say that animals are not property. What does that prove? Are your books authoritive on the debate about whether or not animals can be regarded as property? The chances are that they do not even discuss the issue!

Yes, we are bound to describe the world as it is. That means that it would be perfectly OK to state, in the article on cats or elsewhere, that many people speak of owning cats. In WP we are however also bound not to take a stance on this issue.

It is regrettable that you reverted back to "ownership" without waiting for the discussion to come to a conclusion. That way of talking of cats does amount to taking a stance. Using other, neutral terms, such as "caregiver" or "human" is not taking a stance; it is acceptable to all.

David Olivier 14:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

If an article repeatedly used sexist language, but just added a sign stating "the use of these words is controversial, but their use on this page should not be construed as taking a stance in the debate", would you think that that fixed the problem? No, quite the contrary. It is just a way of taking a stance and trying to camouflage that stance at the same time. David Olivier 15:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth, you say. Well, in what sense is it "verifiable" that cats are owned? All you can point to is that it is verifiable that some people believe that cats are owned. That is not the same thing.

A site may be authoritive about cats, without at all addressing the issue of whether they are owned or not. Have the sites you (Ramdrake) point to addressed that issue? In what way are they authoritive on that issue? More so than other sources, such as quite some books by philosophers, that argue that animals are not property?

As I already said, opinions differ on the subjec of whether cats are owned or not. Wikipedia should remain neutral on that issue, and thus not use the word "owner".David Olivier 16:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Nique1287 says: "I have never, ever, heard anyone (except those forwarding the usage of the terms here) use "human companion" or "caregiver"" Well, that goes for any term whatever. If you bannish from your sample those who use the term, you have never heard the term used.

People who use terms such as "caregiver" or "companion" are not Martians. They live on the same planet, and their opinions do exist and count, as much as yours.

The fact is that not all people believe that cats are owned. WP should remain neutral on that issue.

David Olivier 16:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

If you love your cat, set it free. If it doesn't come back to you, you can always get another one that looks similar. (^_^) Gzuckier 18:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I would remind editors that Wikipedia is not a soapbox for advocacy, as those who wish to replace the word "owner" from the article seem to be doing. The relationship between animal and human is one of ownership as written in the law and commonly understood in society. The term "caregiver" is not necessarily NPOV either, as it implies that any level of care is given to the animal, which is not always the case in such a relationship.--RWR8189 21:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with most of the people here, this isn't really the place to be debating this. Fact is: currently the legal status of the pet owner is just that, owner. Debating whether they're property or not doesn't change that. My brother is extremely possessive of his cats, but one went missing once, and he went out around the neighborhood at about 11:30 to find her (point is, one can "own" a cat and still "love" it). The point made by Mandrake is a good one. An encyclopedia is there to provide information on how the world is, not how it should (or should not) be. As far as I can tell (being a pet owner for 7 years, 5 months now), the only ones offended by the usage are such terms are people, thing is the pets themselves don't seem to care. Also, I'd have to agree with the sentiment that "caregiver" "human companion" etc aren't exactly neutral terms.

To say that the use of the term "owner" is in some way "sourced" by references to books, Web sites, etc. is deeply confused. You can give sources for a fact, e.g. indicate an article in a reputable journal supporting that fact. You cannot source the use of a term in the same way; you cannot just point to the fact that the term is in effect used, to prove that it is right to use it.

We can all agree that many people (perhaps the majority) use the term "owner" for their cats. That doesn't make the use of that term NPOV. Just as we can all agree that, for instance, many people (perhaps the majority of those who mention him) refer to Thomas Aquinas as Saint Thomas Aquinas; that doesn't mean that Wikipedia should do the same. To do so would be clearly pro-Christian (perhaps pro-Catholic) NPOV.

All we can say is that the term "owner" is in common use. We can also say that many people (even among those who use it) feel uneasy about the term. And many also avoid it. In the article, we can mention those facts. We can go on to use neutral terms, which all should be happy with, such as "caregiver"; except in contexts where "owner" is relevant.

And by the way, if you want to insist on calling cats property on the basis of their legal status, at the very least you have to prove that they do have that status in all countries. That is not at all obvious. In France, for instance, their status is a lot more ambiguous than that. This just goes to show that that status is generally irrelevant in the context of the article. Why go to the trouble of doing all such worldwide legal research just to validate the use of the word "owner" in a sentence such as " Some theories suggest that cats see their owners gone for long times of the day... "?

David Olivier 19:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Please answer my arguments. David Olivier 14:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for acknowledging that " doesn't make the term NPOV ". Thanks also for acknowledging that the legal status of cats as property in certain countries should not enter the debate.

Now, is there any WP policy that states that the most common term is the one to use? In all circumstances? Then I think there are a good deal of pages that should be rewritten! For instance, a google search seems to show that the word "car" is about six times as common as the word "automobile", but the WP "car" article redirects to "automobile" and mostly uses that last term.

So I'd say that the word choice must depend not on its being the most common term, but on its being NPOV - in tune with the fact that NPOV is viewed as fundamental in WP policy. Since you have accepted that being a common term does not make "owner" a NPOV term, it seems to e that how common the term "owner" may be should be left entirely out of the discussion.

" By giving preference to an alternate term rather than the term most commonly used, we are showing a POV bias. " I see no reason to say that. There can be many different reasons to give preference to a term that is not the most commonly used one. A term can be more technically correct, or less ambiguous, or less offensive to some, and so on. It can also be more NPOV. The term "owner" is not technically correct (you come close to admitting that), it is offensive to some (to me for instance - I would not like to thi

Ar Pet Adoption