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Mediation or some sort of work forum needs to be arranged

I already wrote my 1000 words in evidence page and do not want to exceed the limit with a Fifth Assertion. However, it must be noted that another editor has stated that what is happening in Biological psychiatry article is a content dispute, and that “mediation or some sort of work forum needs to be arranged” . If we keep in mind what I have stated elsewhere, that despite claims to the contrary I am not a pov pusher in articles in spite of the fact that I showed my strong pov in talk pages and that I have not violated policy , in my case a content dispute should have been rejected without prejudice. —Cesar Tort 17:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Involuntary treatment

Evidence Page is about behavior assertions. However, this case has increasingly become about content. I have stated somewhere else that I was Wiki-burnout about accusations. But now that the well is not poisoned (I hope), I’d like to comment once more about content.

Besides what the DSM psychiatric manual really says , some of the most relevant content issues about Biological psychiatry article have been discussed here . And the genetic/environment discussion, for example, continued in user and talk pages , Talk:Pit of despair and also in .

But now Anarchist42, a newcomer to the debate, has introduced the most important subject of all: involuntary treatment by psychiatrists. Involuntary treatment explains why thousands of psychiatric users around the world have organized forums such as MindFreedom International. Besides being independent from religious affiliations, MindFreedom has been recognized by the United Nations. According to Anarchist42 involuntary treatment by biopsychiatrists “suggests that their methods and theories warrant a more critical perspective than the other medical fields (i.e. more than just a paragraph or two in psychiatric articles)” . —Cesar Tort 02:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 20:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Involuntary treatment is wholly relevant, in that biopsych is a problem science that tries to solve problems in an unhinged and unbalanced way, using only the chemical aspects of the brains functions, whereas the primary social problems which most often are adressed by the method ARE SOCIAL not brain chemistry problems. Involuntary treatment is wholly relevant in that if you are "treated" and your problems are not solved, then you have just been system raped and forced to take drugs which may render you incompetent to defend yourself. This is a serious and very real problem that you invalidate with a sweep of your fallacious logic, you should think about the victims that you are now casting the blame on, and how social problems are best solved socially not chemically. Prometheuspan 20:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

dysfunction. I'm A sociologist and a Psychologist, and I have a clear mind for how we should deal with "mental health" as a sociology problem, and how we are blaming the victim when we medicate people instead of change society as per the obvious. As far as being blinded by zealotry, I'll call that a convenient projection and an ad hominem, but I'll spare you the WP:PAIN report, since I'm sure your denial has made you delusional. My argument by assertion seems to be working fine, they say projection and cognitive disonance happen in argument when the person doesn't have a valid argument and subliminally knows it. Prometheuspan 20:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

"more than a minority of the scientific / medical establishment" Why would i do that? I know that I have a minority opinion, the only question is what level of due weight that minority opinion should recieve. Trying to bait me into making a straw man for you? sorry. "Correct...established but erroneous" Again you falsely attribute my position to only myself, when in fact and as you should know many scientists share this minority opinion. You can read anything you want into what i write, your interpretation isn't what I am interested in. So far, I have yet to discuss you except in response to you discussing me. I don't mind discussing my own biases in propper time and place, and, if you are seeking disclosure, I have more than provided it. I haven't attacked your objectivity or your ethics, I have simply stated the facts as they are. Me and millions of other people know that the Pharma industry has serious problems. You are the one taking this personally, you are the one involving your own ego, so any attack you subjectivize is entirely delusional. Prometheuspan 21:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I have framed my argument in perfectly legal and perfectly sane terms, you are only and yet again changing the topic into a veiled ad hominem. You are very skilled at misconstrueing things, but you don't have the power to keep other people from seeing the obvious. As long as you have a cognitive dissonance and refuse to face reality, your inability to see or understand is really not my problem. To reiterate; Pharma drugs has serious problems. Those problems are not merely the fictional imaginations of me and cesar working over time, they are based in fact and there is a large body of evidence even in teh scholarly community to support our position. You are simply ignoring the arguments and making me and cesar the subject. In a variety of different ways. I don't have any problem admitting to a factual minority opinion, or in advocating that that minority opinion be given a fair voice under its due weight. Your arguments do not in general lead one to believe that you understand the reality or the severity of the problem, or the factuality of the evidence or even the number of people involved in the minority view. Prometheuspan 21:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

My assumption is, the last thing you really want to do is send me in to go look at talk pages. I think that you are unfairly characterizing cesars position and tactics, and i would hope that the reality is that the problem here is not what you say or seem to feel, but that the dispute wasn't resolved earlier because of the polarization which both sides apparently participated in. It is appropriate for wikipedia to give fair time to this minority view, and I don't see a respect for that in your arguments. Its important that medicine be given its propper respect, and the worst failure I see is your defensiveness in that. Honestly, I think all sides of this debate are suffering because of the vagueness of handling issues of due weight. Thats a wikipedia systemic problem, and if i were the whole lot of you, I'd be haranguing Jimbo over running the place so loosely. The real question is not whether or not the minority opinion should be given a voice, but how large that voice should be compared to other voices. Apparently Cesar thinks that the voice being allowed him is too small, and apparently you disagree. Nowhere on Wikipedia is there a qauntitative rule to follow. If we go by the idea that neutrality delivers a document in which the reader can discern no apparent bias one way or the other, then the article is clearly not that. Then again, this voice got in with a due weight freedom pass under the npov neutrality policy, and giving the minority opinion equal time would seem unfair. Then there is the problem of pov forking, and when and if there are good grounds to pov fork, which i think there are in this case. If I was an arbiter, I'd instruct Him to leave no more than links to his own articles and a paragraph of basic info in the mainline articles, and instruct him to part out his arguments to several articles, and prolly get a name change as "anti" is predjudicial. As I am not an arbiter, All i can do is look at the arguments in front of me and use logic to determine their validity. The arguments you are using are polarizing, disrespectful, and whether intended or not, cross the line into ad hominems as defined in formal logic. 25 percent seems like a fair number.Prometheuspan 23:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

No: my deal with Rockpocket was merely not engage anymore in mutual accusations. —Cesar Tort 23:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I was merely concerned by a negative vote in Proposed decision : that’s why I felt compelled to better present my case. —Cesar Tort 00:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I will comply with ArbCom decision without further complaints. —Cesar Tort 00:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The editing solution has already been suggested by Fred Bauder: the 25% compromise . —Cesar Tort 22:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Have you re-read my “Third Content Assertion”? . There’s no substantial criticism in biopsych article; only cosmetic criticism. Bauder’s suggestion doesn’t contradict WP policy. Your suggestion does. The strongest of my assertions, Raul’s razor , vigorously attest for that. —Cesar Tort 23:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


I wholly agree with Ande B about anti-medicine, anti-science, anti-vaccination and anti-evolution. However, unlike the above biopsych is sometimes involuntary. Hence the nature of the research, hypotheses and treatment modalities ought to be supported by solid scientific evidence. But in “bio”psych we have the eternal biomarker impasse and the unresolved issues discussed in the internal links above in this section. —Cesar Tort 04:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 20:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC) To compare those two is to draw a false analogy. This is not psuedoscience and it is not driven by another

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